tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post4572776133322695572..comments2024-03-27T05:23:48.855-04:00Comments on Krugman-in-Wonderland: Krugman's Freudian Slip?William L. Andersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802990642236807359noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-69304524466489419432011-08-25T10:35:22.044-04:002011-08-25T10:35:22.044-04:00Wow, so much disinfo on here
1 Number one, our me...Wow, so much disinfo on here<br /><br />1 Number one, our median income (not average, which is a sham indicator, especially for the US, where they have tremendous wealth disparity, even more thna Iran, and a cooked GDP based on fiscal turnover and many negative things we do not count here such as prisons, etc) is 50% higher than the USA. The USA median income is 25,000, ours is 37,000. <br /><br />2 Our coprporate tax rates are much lower than the USA, and we have a much more SMALL and MEDIUM-sized business friendly environment. The USA is oligarch friendly to the extreme.<br /><br />3 Our total income tax rates (national, regional, local) on all Income under approx 60,000 US dollars per year is around 31%, and after deduction breaks down to about 25%. Income over 60K is taxed at almost 48%, with deductions, this breaks down to around 40%.<br /><br />4 Because of these rates, and our VAT, and the FACT that HEALTHCARE and Schools, etc etc,is all paid for in those taxes, I paid around 6000 dollars MORE in to total taxes in NYC on 80,000 per year versus the same here.<br /><br />5 Even though there is technically not a minimum wage here, the threshold is 100 SEK per hour, with is around 17 dollars per hour, due to agreements that pay according to a percentage of what a union job pays.<br /><br />6 We have well over 20% non-white populace, (over 40% in Malmö and over 30% in Stockholm) most from war torn refugee status over the last 40 years or so. We ARE NOT lilly white in the least as many belive, this is pure racist bunk.<br /><br />7 We have on average, around 45 days PAID holiday, between national holidays, and firm-provided paid ones. The USA has around 10 to 15, if you are lucky. Our productivity per hour actually worked is FAR HIGHER than the USA, and if you count wages per hour actually worked, Sweden is even more above the USA.<br /><br />8 Our poverty rate is almost zero, so the monies spent by our government go to actually IMPROVING out lives here, not mitigating sociological dysfunction like they do in the USA.<br /><br />9 Our wages are also higher because the firms do not have to pay HUGE chunks of their revenues to private, for profit health insurance and care providers. One reason you see an occasionaly horror story here in health care is because it is so rare it sticks out. I have always received world-class service when I need it.<br /><br />10 Final point- most of our tax money is spent at local and 'state' level, where there is a much greater sense of social connectedness and accountabilty. We will actually run a SURPLUS this year in our national and state7local budgets. We dont have to toss hundreds and hundreds of billions at servicing a mosntrous debt, like the USA does. We also have extremely strict regulations on banks and markets, and have not come under the systemic control of them to anywhere near the exten the USA does.<br /><br />Bottom line, we are actually much free market than the USA is, as the US has pure oligarchic socialism for the few monsters at the top, and brutal submission to their controlling and plundering for the middle and bottom.<br /><br />cheers from StockholmStockholmernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-5649162675586711962011-08-25T05:28:21.460-04:002011-08-25T05:28:21.460-04:00Worth mentioning is—as Johan Norberg, Swedish fell...Worth mentioning is—as Johan Norberg, Swedish fellow as the Cato Institute points out—that Swedish bureaucracy works only because we have a several hundred years long history of bureaucracy. As he puts it: “Sweden’s big state works because it is Swedish, not because it is big.”Caspian Rehbinderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01521903255427000746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-78859273524701692552011-08-24T14:47:10.502-04:002011-08-24T14:47:10.502-04:00Alaskaman never answered my question about the inn...Alaskaman never answered my question about the innovation factor. I wonder why?<br />Why would socialist states lag behind the U.S. in innovating? Hmmm...lets see...<br /><br />He is only good at calling people morons. Guess who really is the moron here.American Patriotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-78118940623991723032011-08-24T12:59:41.464-04:002011-08-24T12:59:41.464-04:00Alaskaman calling Anderson egotistical is hilariou...Alaskaman calling Anderson egotistical is hilarious, Alaskaman is the most egotistical poster on this board but as is typical of Keynesians its always the other side that is arrogant and lacking is some proof. Alaskaman is simple regurgitating what they find online without any thought or proof.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-49158932973008117242011-08-24T12:28:42.579-04:002011-08-24T12:28:42.579-04:00*dependant*dependantburkll13https://www.blogger.com/profile/00458192777661669534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-89617853160995445792011-08-24T12:09:49.112-04:002011-08-24T12:09:49.112-04:00"And burkll you are even dumber - the AVERAGE..."And burkll you are even dumber - the AVERAGE price of ALL consumer goods versus post-tax personal income does not have to balance out. I don't spent all my money on restaurants and cars. You are comparing apples to something that is not even fruit! Maybe learn about percentages a bit."<br /><br />i never said they had to balance out, but one thing that should be painfully obvious is that it does negatively affect Norwegians who do spend a higher % of their income on consumer goods (i.e. POOR people). so poor norwegians NEED welfare to approach the QOL of our somewhat less dependate poor.<br /><br />but, apparently im Jeff Daniels, so, whatever.burkll13https://www.blogger.com/profile/00458192777661669534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-30666677175030091682011-08-24T11:34:53.606-04:002011-08-24T11:34:53.606-04:00Mike here is another insult for ya - moron! I cite...Mike here is another insult for ya - moron! I cited from the same site (numbeo)that you were. I also cited extensive facts about social indicators (health, pollution, crime, teen pregnancy). <br /><br />And burkll you are even dumber - the AVERAGE price of ALL consumer goods versus post-tax personal income does not have to balance out. I don't spent all my money on restaurants and cars. You are comparing apples to something that is not even fruit! Maybe learn about percentages a bit.<br /><br />And Norway has a huge social safety net, so you have already paid for cleaner air, better healthcare, a pension, and yes - government sponsored vacations!<br /><br />And Anderson - your unwillingness to deal with the cognitive bias that has developed here is truly alarming. How far will you go until you accept that liberalism, progressivism, or whatever else you want to call it has not turned Norway into a socialist hell hole. Are you now going to make the same racist remark that because there are no black people in Norway (which there are) it is wealthy?<br /><br />Here is some more info on Norway's oil industry - it is majority state-owned and the profits are invested in one of the most successful sovereign funds called Oljefondet. So no, it is not spent on political patronage like in Saudi Arabia or Venezuela. There is again that little thing that Austrians hate to admit - regime type. Democracy matters.alaskamannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-8156885239577692752011-08-24T10:54:53.758-04:002011-08-24T10:54:53.758-04:00@Bob from Buffalo
"Proof of the poverty of A...@Bob from Buffalo<br /><br />"Proof of the poverty of Alaskaman's arguments is evident in that he feel he needs to be rude and insulting in order to get his point across. If he really had something of value to say his arguments would be sufficient and be able to stand on their own."<br /><br />Agreed. All I did was list some facts (I don't believe he cited any facts) and I was attacked. I thought the same thing you did.Mike Cheelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-28875387519968928912011-08-24T09:17:33.453-04:002011-08-24T09:17:33.453-04:00Proof of the poverty of Alaskaman's arguments ...Proof of the poverty of Alaskaman's arguments is evident in that he feel he needs to be rude and insulting in order to get his point across. If he really had something of value to say his arguments would be sufficient and be able to stand on their own.Bob from Buffalonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-24562430541570545512011-08-24T08:38:37.574-04:002011-08-24T08:38:37.574-04:00AKM -
"the fact that Norwegians - after all ...AKM - <br />"the fact that Norwegians - after all taxes - are still wealthier than Americans"<br /><br />"Norwegians take home after their high taxes 40% more income than Americans"<br /><br /><br />"Consumer Prices in United States are 50.35% lower than in Norway"<br /><br />so, norwegians take home 40% more, and have to spend 50% more (for the same standard of living), and you consider THEM to be wealthier? sense...... you make none.burkll13https://www.blogger.com/profile/00458192777661669534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-46078548177863040692011-08-24T02:11:00.918-04:002011-08-24T02:11:00.918-04:00I stand corrected, AKM. However, oil revenues alon...I stand corrected, AKM. However, oil revenues alone cannot prop up an economy as large as that of Norway. (The Middle East sheikdoms are small enough and oil revenues high enough to give the Ultimate Welfare States.)<br /><br />For example, look at Venezuela. Chavez has nationalized much of the oil industry, but is spending the profits on political ventures, and in the end it will be disastrous for him. First, Venezuela has too many people for all of that oil money to put everyone on the dole. Second, when it comes time for recapitalization, the capital won't be there. Pemex provides the example, as the capital investments needed to keep Mexico's oil industry going simply aren't there because the profits have been spent elsewhere for political purposes.<br /><br />While Norway is not as capital-friendly as the USA, at least the politicians there are not declaring outright war on the oil industry as we see with Obama. And I would think that there is further capital investment and re-investment in that country. Just because it is ranked below the USA does not mean capital investment is non-existent.William L. Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802990642236807359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-12670832699728742602011-08-23T22:06:33.565-04:002011-08-23T22:06:33.565-04:00"In my opinion, the economy of Norway would b..."In my opinion, the economy of Norway would be even stronger if they had a greater degree of economic freedom."<br /><br />Thanks for that opinion Zack. Real meaningful professor.alaskamannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-57348633857254268832011-08-23T19:46:21.235-04:002011-08-23T19:46:21.235-04:00Seems like Norway definitely benefits from having ...Seems like Norway definitely benefits from having economic freedom, to at least some extent that is. Here is the heritage foundation’s take of Norway. <br /><br />http://www.heritage.org/index/country/norway<br /><br />They prosper in spite of having high personal income taxes and a generous welfare state, not because of it. In my opinion, the economy of Norway would be even stronger if they had a greater degree of economic freedom. <br /><br />However, having strict property rights protections, good overall business freedom, trade freedom, and being blessed with natural resources not to mention a low level of corruption all benefit the economy of Norway.zackA89https://www.blogger.com/profile/03695722179840739720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-10847800081769844952011-08-23T18:51:38.673-04:002011-08-23T18:51:38.673-04:00No Anderson, that is not what I said. For god'...No Anderson, that is not what I said. For god's sake they gave you a PhD. <br /><br />You made the claim that Norway's economic success (which attempted qualify with your argument about higher prices) was due to its more lenient attitude toward investment and capital. I then provided evidence that showed that is not the case - Norway is far less accessible to capital than the United States is. That is not an argument about whether capital investment is a good or bad thing, but about your faulty and anecdotal causal logic. You really consider yourself some sort of public intellectual? <br /><br /><br />AP - <br /><br />"So you would prefer the state to confiscate your income" <br /><br />Your inability to think and argue shines through here. I never argued about what I would prefer, only about the impacts of such policies, which are clearly not what Austrians predict. That is you side-stepping the issue. An your attempt to disregard the fact that Norwegians - after all taxes - are still wealthier than Americans is pathetic. There is nothing to confront the fact I produced besides a childlike "no its not!" response. <br /><br />As far as the government "confiscating" my goods to provide for the moochers in society - that is a simplistic and hyperbolic view of both taxation and what it means to be a society. Is dependency inevitable in any form of welfare provision - of course it is. But does that mean the enterprise is unworthy both morally and economically (e.g. by facilitating the creation of a class of people who can actually enjoy the benefits of the economy they work in)? Of course not. Is taxation coercive? Of course it is, but only in a context where there is no such thing as consensus which is what democracy is supposed to provide. Coercion is inevitable - even in the anarchic utopia of the Austrians. <br /><br />And besides, your dollar earned is not free. The taxes collected off of your hard work make it possible for you to make that dollar to begin with. Everything about you - from the education you received as a child, the air you breath, the safety you enjoy, the culture you share and so much more - is not produced ex nihilo. It is the product of collective provision through taxation.alaskamannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-9279559596903782912011-08-23T18:18:52.603-04:002011-08-23T18:18:52.603-04:00OK I know no one mentioned Denmark but I think a l...OK I know no one mentioned Denmark but I think a lot of the points in this article apply.<br /><br />http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123126942<br /><br />BTW, do any of the Austrians here favor any level of safety net or should there be none whatsoever? It seems like most industrialized societies favor at least something.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-31237438534325953712011-08-23T16:50:32.260-04:002011-08-23T16:50:32.260-04:00alaskaman:
the only thing you should be laughing ...alaskaman:<br /><br />the only thing you should be laughing at is your intellectual shallowness.<br /><br />So you would prefer the state to confiscate your income in return for the 'goodies' you obviously aren't willing to provide yourself with. What that boils down to is taxing those willing to be productive to give to the rest. <br />And don't give me the crap that they have higher take home pays. Their post tax figures is meaningless since most of their taxes are in the form of VAT, not federal taxes - thus the astronomical cost of goods and services. <br />As Thatcher said, the problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money. <br /><br />Of course, to see that you would need two working brain cells to rub together.American Patriothttp://defendourconstitution.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-36507449816367476072011-08-23T16:31:11.916-04:002011-08-23T16:31:11.916-04:00I think conservative is a better term for progress...I think conservative is a better term for progressives. They seem to want to lock in our current economy and prevent any change. For example, health care and the auto industry.Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-63885592399193011302011-08-23T16:19:20.649-04:002011-08-23T16:19:20.649-04:00I despise how self-proclaimed "Progressives&q...I despise how self-proclaimed "Progressives" have hijacked the word progress since, under their policies, progress and innovation by entrepreneurs is severely hindered.amnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-23038364847797504602011-08-23T15:45:46.505-04:002011-08-23T15:45:46.505-04:00So, according to Alaskaman, capital investment is ...So, according to Alaskaman, capital investment is a bad thing. I had no idea, but as they say, the Internet is an interesting thing.<br /><br />So, the less capital investment, the wealthier an economy will be. This guy must be working for the Obama administration.William L. Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802990642236807359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-82776883771360471542011-08-23T15:39:35.714-04:002011-08-23T15:39:35.714-04:00Ha ha ha ha! Do you guys ever take a moment to lis...Ha ha ha ha! Do you guys ever take a moment to listen to what you write? <br /><br />First Mike Cheel - no one ever doubted that the cost of living is higher in Norway than it is in the United States. Norway is one of the most expensive places to live in the world! You have not discovered anything new. You HAVE, though failed to note another statistic from that very same website - post tax discretionary income, which is 40% higher than in the United States.<br /><br />So Norwegians pay 40-50% in taxes, benefit from a large social welfare program (including health care for all) AND have more income to spend (on more expensive products) than Americans. <br /><br />American Patriot - I know you are from Europe, but your story is so ridiculous I actually laughed out loud. So life is hell in Norway because the luxuries of life (eating at restaurants and large apartments) are expensive? Quite a selective view of human happiness based primarily on individual consumption rather than other indicators like health, life expectancy, crime, teenage pregnancy and abortion, pollution and environmental health etc etc... <br /><br />Again, no one is claiming that Norway is paradise. But, clearly progressive policies have not led to social breakdown, poverty, and unhappiness. Moreover, our system clearly does not convey the same benefits as the Norwegian social welfare system. We have more economic freedom (despite Austrian hyperbole) and rank far lower on many social indicators.alaskamannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-45752376280033820202011-08-23T14:52:17.419-04:002011-08-23T14:52:17.419-04:00From my link above (http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-...From my link above (http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Norway&country2=United+States<br />):<br /><br />"Consumer Prices in United States are 50.35% lower than in Norway<br /><br />Consumer Prices Including Rent in United States are 47.15% lower than in Norway<br /><br />Rent Prices in United States are 32.78% lower than in Norway<br /><br />Restaurant Prices in United States are 61.47% lower than in Norway<br /><br />Groceries Prices in United States are 55.13% lower than in Norway<br /><br />Local Purchasing Power in United States is 16.42% higher than in Norway"<br /><br />In fact, the only thing from the page that is lower than the US is 1 min. Prepaid Mobile Tariff.Mike Cheelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-29939513339603779102011-08-23T14:41:44.229-04:002011-08-23T14:41:44.229-04:00Forgot to add this.
Even if you had the money, hav...Forgot to add this.<br />Even if you had the money, have you seen the average apartment in Paris or London? You'd think you are in the projects. Small, not modern....<br /><br />Another aspect of high taxes Krugman ignores is that it leaves no incentive for innovation. why do you think we are what we are and Europe is not (when it comes to latter 20th century innovation)American Patriothttp://defendourconstitution.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-71333740955852373842011-08-23T14:37:09.602-04:002011-08-23T14:37:09.602-04:00Alright all you progressive drones, here it is fro...Alright all you progressive drones, here it is from a European's own experiences:<br /><br />Incomes in Europe are on their face pretty respectable. But, that tells only half the story.<br />Who cares if Norwegians (take not that it is a sparsely populated country) enjoy 10% higher GDP per capita (all others with exception of Switzerland and Luxembourg are at least 20% below the U.S.). Have you ever been there? Any idea how much it costs to eat out or enjoy the luxuries of life you take for granted here? At $10 per gallon gas and astronomic cost of living in just about everything else, trust me you do not want to be another Norway or Sweden.<br /><br />You all need to travel abroad more!American Patriothttp://defendourconstitution.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-25570360551204695522011-08-23T14:01:27.717-04:002011-08-23T14:01:27.717-04:00Apparently comments are disappearing again.
Anyh...Apparently comments are disappearing again. <br /><br />Anyhoo, here are some actual citations about Norway: <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Norway<br /><br />http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Norway&country2=United+StatesMike Cheelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6276561747841568697.post-91346584754772911652011-08-23T13:58:13.833-04:002011-08-23T13:58:13.833-04:00Dennis, delusion is a comforting mistress. You fai...Dennis, delusion is a comforting mistress. You failed to address any of my points. Your misgivings about social security have nothing to do with whether they actually translate to individual's sense of wealth, which is what the point of Anderson's idiotic statement was and senior Freedom's stupidity regarding the G in GDP. <br /><br />Norway's welfare state has been operating long before the oil boom of the 1970s (shipping, fishing, agricultural products) and the problem is not oil per se but the failure of the Norwegian economy to diversify, which makes it highly susceptible to market fluctuations. The principle still stands - tax the wealthy sectors of society (in this case oil) to fund a social welfare program. <br /><br />Oh and if you want another measure of "wealth" - unemployment in Norway is about 3%.<br /><br />And to Anderson about the business environment and attack on capital - Heritage ranks Norway at 30 for economic freedom. The United States is 9th. Norway's investment freedom is 50.2 compared to the United States' 75. Again, the internet is a wonderful thing if you can get of your ego thronealaskamannoreply@blogger.com